Musings on Photography

The photos to not take

Posted in ethics, process by Paul Butzi on January 23, 2007

Ever since the incident where a gunman attacked an Amish schoolhouse in Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania, and the media settled in to document everything about that event, I’ve been pondering this question: are there photographs I don’t want to make?  I’m not just considering the obvious case where the subject doesn’t interest me- I don’t want to make photographs of Madonna, or photographs of beetles, because I’m just not interested.  That’s a simple decision.  I’m pondering, really, the ethics of making photographs.  Nowhere have I seen that highlighted with quite the intensity as with the photographers on the scene in Nickel Mines, Pennsylvania back in October when a truck driver took an entire Amish schoolhouse hostage and killed five students.

The dilemma is straightforward – the Amish don’t want to be photographed.  If you’re a news photographer, your job is clear – get the photos that tell the story.  The actual treatment of this by various photographers is nicely covered in this article in the CJR.  But I’m not a photojournalist, so thankfully I’m not confronted with choices which are quite so stark.  I’m just a landscape photographer, so my decisions seem both less critical and less clear cut.  It doesn’t mean that my decisions aren’t important, or don’t have any impact on the art I make.  It just means the issues can be a little less intense, and the consequences of not getting the photo are a little less short term, and much more long term.

Unlike quite a few landscape photographers, I won’t jump a fence for a photo.  I’ll set my tripod against the fence, I’ll even set the tripod legs astride the fence if needed, but I won’t jump the fence.  The fence is there for a reason, and if I really want to be on the other side, I’ll get permission.  Likewise, I won’t go past ‘No Trespassing” signs without permission.  Property owners have the right to decide how their property is used, including the right to exclude people for any reason (or for no reason at all).  I want the owners of the landscape I photograph to exercise good stewardship.  If I want them to be responsible and respect the landscape, then I have to be responsible and respect their decisions.

Does this mean walking away from photos I wanted?  You betcha.  But every photographer who jumps a fence adds to the incremental resentment of property owners, and makes it that much harder for the next photographer to come along. There are places in the Palouse in Eastern Washington where trespassing photographers have pissed off the farmers so badly that the farmers harass any photographers they spot, regardless of whether they’re trespassing or not.   

This isn’t just “I won’t jump the fence if I’m likely to get caught”.  I don’t do it even if I’m positive that no one will even see me.  I believe my attitudes will show in the work I do, and it’s not a matter of getting caught, it’s a matter of having the right attitude. 

Beyond the obvious trespass issues, though, there are other situations where I won’t open the shutter.  If I’m setting up, and the property owner comes out and asks me to stop, I stop.  I stop even if I’m on a public right of way, and have every legal right to be where I am and photograph whatever I can see.  I don’t want the people who live where I’m photographing to feel that I’m an intruder, or that I’m a threat.  Will I talk with them, explain what I’m doing, and try to persuade them to let me photograph?  Sure – I won’t push hard, but I’ll give it a shot if I can keep it friendly.  But while I’m being charming and persuasive, I put away the camera and the tripod, to make it clear that I’ve stopped.  And, in the end, if they don’t change their mind, that’s it.  It’s their choice.  If they don’t want me to take the photograph, I don’t want to take it.

So I was very interested to read this post and comments over on Art & Perception.  The author, Richard Rothstein, is very concerned about his legal rights, and about how restrictions are being placed on where he can photograph and what he can photograph.  I have some sympathy for Rothstein, who is finding that his access to the subjects he wants to photograph is being curtailed.  That’s enormously frustrating.  And, I’ll be the first to point out that with the exception of private property issues, I believe that Rothstein has every legal right to photograph as he pleases.  He has a legal right to stand on the public sidewalk and take photographs of passers-by.  He has a legal right to stand in the public right of way and photograph a church.

But what I find missing from Rothstein’s post is this: the fact that we have a legal right to do something doesn’t mean that it’s right to go ahead and do it.  The law may not prevent me from photographing up women’s dresses in public, but that doesn’t make it right to do so.  It’s wrong.  And in the same sense, I’m very uneasy with Mr. Rothstein and his legal right to photograph that church, if what he’s doing is increasing the concern on the part of the congregation of that church that they might become targets of violence.

And so I found the following snip of comment from that same Art and Perception post chilling:

It’s always good to find ways to join rather than fight the local community. Disguises are sometimes useful.

Is this what we’ve come to – that we’re so intent on making our art that we’ll engage in deception to get the photo?  I’d like to think that the person who wrote that made a bad choice of words, but I’m not optimistic about that.  I’m afraid that we’ve reached the point that we feel that if something is legal, that means it’s perfectly ok for us to go ahead and do it. 

And, if that’s the case, I can only quote Samuel Goldwyn : “Gentlemen, include me out”.

36 Responses

Subscribe to comments with RSS.

  1. Ed Richards said, on January 23, 2007 at 11:39 am

    One thing about large format, there is no fooling people as to what you are doing.

    I think we should distinguish between the wishes of private landholders and restrictions on public places. I am troubled that the local officials think it is a violation of national security for me to photograph car ferries on the Mississippi, or even the cruise ship I am about to board. (I am not making that one up.)

    At the same time, I appreciate Paul’s concerns with the rights of private landowners. I also mostly respect fences, but I have to admit that around here you can shoot trespassers without liability, which really changes your views on trespassing.

  2. Jonathan Greenwald said, on January 23, 2007 at 12:35 pm

    Interesting dilemma, but you have to ask yourself what kind of photographer you are or want to be and let that answer determine who, what, and where you photograph. If you are content being a landscape photographer, chances are you won’t take any risks as a photojournalist. That’s not to say all photojournalists take risks, but then again, that’s what separates the professionals from those having a good time.

    Fundamentally most aspects of photography are intrusive and morally unacceptable; however, as a photojournalist or someone that wants to be one, you have to put that in the back of your mind. Photographing the scene in the Amish school is not morally acceptable, but it’s necessary to tell a story and, especially, incriminate the offender of the senseless act (although not necessary since he committed suicide).

    I am not a photojournalist. I have a day job outside of photography. Would I jump the fence? Absolutely every day; twice on Sundays. To me, it’s about documenting the scene and not thinking about what is right and wrong. In the back of my mind, I know what is fundamentally unacceptable (photographing up a woman’s skirt is sad for one), so I must be prepared for the confrontation that comes with a difference in opinions. We may not all agree what is safe to photograph as public domain and what is unacceptable, so we should do what we think is right and let those who didn’t take the shot themselves judge us.

    Two things happened in recent years that have made this topic one that will be debated for many,many years; 9/11 and the incredibly cheap dSLRs. Without the two, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. As a result of the two, we are constantly second-guessing what we should and shouldn’t do, often leading to a missed shot. Perhaps the shot that can kick-start a great career in photography.

  3. photomusings said, on January 23, 2007 at 12:49 pm

    Interesting dilemma, but you have to ask yourself what kind of photographer you are or want to be and let that answer determine who, what, and where you photograph.

    No, I think you’ve got it slightly wrong. First, you need to decide what kind of person you want to be. Once you’ve done that, you let that answer determine who, what, and where you photograph.

  4. Jonathan Greenwald said, on January 23, 2007 at 12:59 pm

    What kind of person you are and what you photograph do not always coincide. Our professions do not always match our characters. It’s not that easy.

    Just because you want to be a nice person and not hop a fence doesn’t make you any better or worse of a photographer. What it does is separate us when it comes to our career. If I am willing to take chances, even if it’s not in my character, I may (although I may not) be the better choice for editors or whomever wants your photos.

  5. paul said, on January 23, 2007 at 2:48 pm

    I would have to agree with Paul. I’ll have to stand on the character issue, first.

    If I see a No Trespassing sign, I don’t trespass. It’s that simple. If someone doesn’t want for me to take their picture, I don’t. I don’t think that we can let our occupations override our respect for another persons rights.

    If the Amish have a religious belief or personal preference to not have their picture taken, then my archives will not have any Amish in them. Perhaps that is not ‘professional’, but it is respectful and I’ll take that any day!

  6. Mark Hobson said, on January 23, 2007 at 4:00 pm

    There’s a photographer ’round these parts (northern Adirondacks) who benefitted greatly from private property interests. He had taken a landscape photograph from a public road of a lake scene with a bit of someone’s property in the foreground. A scenic poster was the result.

    The property owner, an elderly woman, was upset. When informed by the photographer of the legality of the situation, she inquired how much it would cost to buy the negative and all remaining posters. The photographer simply responded you couldn’t afford it. She said, “Try me.” He said, “$10,000.00.” She said, “Wait here”, went and got her check book and wrote him a check on the spot.

    The check cleared.

  7. Jonathan Greenwald said, on January 23, 2007 at 4:05 pm

    I completely understand your stance. Removing the occupation variable, the argument leans toward obeying the privacy and personal space of others. I still choose do my own thing because I want the shot regardless, but you can easily make the argument for respecting others.

    I’d love to hear more on this topic.

  8. darrellklein said, on January 23, 2007 at 8:39 pm

    Great post Paul. This is exactly how I feel about respecting the rights of property owners. Sometimes, I think about all of the shots I have missed because of it but at least I can feel good about the shots I do get. Regardless of what others might try to convince themselves or others of, this says a lot about the character of the photographer.

  9. Rosie Perera said, on January 24, 2007 at 6:04 am

    Very good thoughts, Paul. I agree with your sentiments, and generally live by those principles as well.

    I will sometimes step one foot into the soil of a botanical garden flower bed in order to get a good shot, but will never damage any of the other plants in the way. And I fix up the dirt afterwards to get rid of any footprint I might have made.

    I have used long lenses to shoot photos of people in cultures where they are shy about having their picture taken, for example in Bolivia, where I was told they believe that having their picture taken will take away their soul. I would have preferred to get their permission so that I could publish the photos sometime if I wanted to, but I knew they’d probably say no, so I took the photos surreptitiously, just for my eyes only.

    I posted a photo and great story over on my blog in response to this post of yours.

  10. Alan George said, on January 24, 2007 at 10:07 am

    For me, it boils down to whether or not I am causing some harm. This is strictly from a landscape perspective. If I get up extremely early and drive a couple of hours to arrive at a park before sun up and there is a sign that indicates the park doesn’t “open” for another hour or so, do I turn around? Well I ask my self whether any harm will result from my going forward. If the answer is no, then I will go forward. And this also applies to when I am there legitimately. For example, if I hike down to that beach where those seals are and disturb them, am I causing harm? Even though I have every “right” to do so. For me, the landscape is beyond complete ownership. We all have an interest in the landscape. Can a person can “purchase” the land next to you and start a strip mine? No. The public has an interest even though he “owns” the property. If I am not causing any harm to the “owner”, then I don’t see the moral dilemma. The landscape has been there long before us and will continue long after, I am simply recording it. No harm no foul:)

  11. Jim Jirka said, on January 24, 2007 at 10:30 am

    Johnathan represents everything that is wrong with society today. That he feels it is his god given right to do as he pleases without giving thought to morals. I bet he must be younger in age. As for me, I still abide by what is morally right and wrong.

  12. Alan George said, on January 24, 2007 at 10:45 am

    “Johnathan represents everything that is wrong with society today.”

    Everything? Are you sure?

  13. Jonathan Greenwald said, on January 24, 2007 at 12:42 pm

    Wow Jim, the least you could do is spell my name correctly. God-given right, not quite what I implied and if that’s all you took away from the discussion, perhaps I’m wasting my time replying. We are talking about taking photographs, not taking the life of my fellow man for the benefit of pleasure. I wouldn’t push someone out of my way if they insisted I not take their photo; however, I would hop a fence illegally, go where I shouldn’t and even stir up some controversy if it meant I was able to document what I wanted others to see. Sure I give thought to morals, but I give more thought to capturing a significant event on my camera.

    Oh, and I’m 33, thanks.

  14. Alan George said, on January 24, 2007 at 3:12 pm

    Paul,

    Rereading this a few questions occurred to me.

    First, you make the assumption that the intension of all fences are to keep people out. In the presence of a fence you must conclude the intent is to keep you out. Is it possible that the fence is intended to keep something in and that the land owner has no problem with you on his property taking pictures? In the absence of a “no trespassing” sign, I am more included to think the owner would not mind. Why would he if I am not causing any harm. Also you leaning against the fence may be trespassing as well. The fence and property line may not coincide, no? So leaning against the fence may technically/legally/(morally?) be as bad as being on the other side of it.

    Secondly you purpose that the lack of trespass leads to good stewardship. I am not clear on how that works. I respect you so you respect the land? How is that a causal relationship? Actually the opposite seems more logical. A land owner predisposed to abuse may think twice if trespass is a concern. Especially trespassers with cameras:) (Please note I am not suggesting we all trespass to “protect” the land.).

    Having someone object to you taking a picture doesn’t change the motivations for wanting to take the image in the first place, or does it? What if someone objected but did not/ could not voice those opinions, does this change the “morality” of the image. Does the resulting image somehow have less merit because of some unknown “moral” issue? I think not. I am sure there are images that I find breathtaking that where created by people that I would find morally reprehensible. Or is it your position that all “good” art is morally pure art? What ever that is.

    Sorry, if this seems like I am picking a fight. That is not my intension. Just an interesting dialog. Plus I am a little bored today:)

  15. Alan George said, on January 24, 2007 at 4:53 pm

    Paul,

    I was curious if you would respond to my dialog so I went back to see if you had responded to any other comment on your blog and I did not see where you did. Sorry that I wasted my time. At least I know now not to do it again. I guess you are just trying to drive traffic and not interest in a real conversation. Good Luck:)

  16. Karl Zipser said, on January 24, 2007 at 10:09 pm

    Paul,

    Clearly it is most important to balance a variety of important issues as an artist. In the case of the photographer these have an immediacy and relevance that are profound.

  17. Walter Baron said, on January 25, 2007 at 6:00 am

    I have a comment from the side of the land owner. Last summer I was coming home from running some errands, and saw a strange car in my driveway, with the trunk open. I stopped at the side of the road to see what was happening. A man was standing about 3 feet from the door of my boat shop ( my day job is building boats) , setting a camera on a tripod. My immediate response was one of feeling violated. I was very upset that this person felt it was OK to tresspass on my property, set up a tripod in my yard and start to photograph my property without any knid of permission. My blood boils right now thinking about it. If he had been on the street, or had asked permission, I would have been OK. But since he didn’t see anyone around, he felt it was OK to trespass. I didn’t feel that way, and asked him to leave. He felt he was doing nothing wrong, just taking a photograph. I told him that he was on private property, that he was trespassing, and that he had to leave immediately. I told him several times, finally asked him if he wanted me to call the cops. He left, still thinking he had some kind of right to be there. So I agree with Paul, DON”t TRESPASS ON PRIVATE PROPERTY.

  18. Karl Zipser said, on January 25, 2007 at 8:49 am

    As a fan of Paul’s photography, I’d like to offer a different, if hypothetical interpretation of the No Trespassing discussion. When I was ten I lived in Cold Spring Harbor, Long Island and we had some wonderful woods behind our house. If Paul had trespassed there, for the sake of art, and made a photo of that landscape, they would be of immense value to me today — even if at the time I might have been annoyed or alarmed. Walter, obviously that was not Paul on your property. But maybe it was a good photographer. He might have made an amazing picture of your property, something which in the future would give you pleasure and outweigh your justifiable annoyance at his trespassing. But now we will never known.

  19. Anita Jesse said, on January 25, 2007 at 5:19 pm

    I am fascinated by the response of so many photographers who find fences something easily ignored. Yet, on the other hand, if I felt entitled to reproduce one of their images their howls of indignation would wake the dead. Perhaps I would be entitled to reply to those protests: “Hey, it’s only a picture. And, I just wanted some copies for myself and a few of my friends. It’s not like I was going to make a lot of money from it.” What about the concept that we either respect property rights, or we don’t? And what works for one group works for another? Or, are artists to be a favored class?

  20. JohnL said, on January 26, 2007 at 10:00 am

    well said Anita

    JohnL

  21. Richard Schlesinger said, on January 26, 2007 at 10:52 am

    Being a longtime admirer of Helen Levitt I have always had mixed feelings regarding her rported use of a ‘right angle’ attachment to make many of her wonderful photographs in New York

    Some years ago I was faced with a somewhat similar problem in Guatemala while observing the dancing and ceremonies in a small town; after making a number of photographs I was told in no uncertain terms by a participant to cease. A few moments later another participant came over to me and told me to proceed, no one cared.

    While this is a bit off the landscape track it seems relevant.
    What to do?

  22. Leslie Holt said, on January 27, 2007 at 5:00 am

    Sometimes you have no idea what kind of damage you are causing by trespassing. If you talk to farmers in Eastern Washington where Paul mentioned there was a lot of controversy, you would know that someone even walking on their recently seeded field causes them hundreds of dollars per step in lost crops. The probelme out there is that it is so breathtakingly beautiful you go almost insane wanting to see more and wanting to capture this beauty (and I am not even a photographer). So assuming you are doing no harm is not always your call to make either. I would say respecting a no trespassing sign does say something about your charaacter, but I can picture situations in which you were willing to take that ethical risk to get the shot.

  23. Richard Rothstein said, on January 27, 2007 at 7:12 am

    “I’m very uneasy with Mr. Rothstein and his legal right to photograph that church, if what he’s doing is increasing the concern on the part of the congregation of that church that they might become targets of violence.”

    What disturbing and saddening statement from an American who seems to have lost his way. Mr. Butzi needs to put aside Orwell’s 1984 and focus more on the American Constitution and First Amendemnt rights. A free nation does not define rights and freedoms according to the fears, prjeduces and superstitions of nervous mobs.

    Mr. Butzi might want to spend a bit more time with people and little less time with open spaces and dometicated beasts.

    What’s next in your new world, Mr. Butzi? Banning members of certain races and religions from certain neighborhoods because their presence might “increase the concern” of the residents? Should we stop veiled Muslim women from taking photographs of Times Square and Rockefeller Center?

  24. […] and let the art follow. Billie has her adopted town of San Miguel de Allende in Mexico; Paul has fences and rural landscapes (and before that the rocky beaches of the Pacific Northwest); and Doug has […]

  25. Trespassing « Musings on Photography said, on February 10, 2007 at 9:37 pm

    […] post is a little extension and clarification on the trespassing issues raised in The Photos Not to Take.  Judging from the comments and email I’ve received, I’m guessing most readers are […]

  26. f-stop Fitzgerald said, on April 7, 2008 at 9:17 pm

    A fascinating thread. As a reader, I offer my thanks to all who contributed, except the snide comments from Alan George who decided that Paul was a ‘using’ us because he hadn’t replied. Sheesh.

    I’m stuck in a negative tone right now. I’m posting to make one point, primarily in response to Mr. Greenwald, who claims “If I am willing to [violate posted signs], even if it’s not in my character. . . ”

    I assert that is deception, either self-deception or outright nonsense. Your actions define your character. Period. There is nothing intrinsically respectful about you if your actions are disrespectful.

    My comments are far afield from photography. Fundamentally, this whole discussion is.

    For my landscape photography, I almost always chose to photograph public property. Far, distant, remote public property whenever possible. See Paul Butzi’s musings on photo-farming vs photo-hunter-gathering for another fascinating read. . .

    -andy

  27. […] 11, 2008 Some time back I wrote about the photos not to take. That post, and the followups to it, are still among the most read posts on this […]

  28. […] 11, 2008 Some time back I wrote about the photos not to take. That post, and the followups to it, are still among the most read posts on this […]

  29. An Interesting Read « charla.ca said, on April 13, 2008 at 9:27 am

    […] The Photos To Not Take – from Musings on Photography No Comments so far Leave a comment RSS feed for comments on this post. TrackBack URI Leave a comment Line and paragraph breaks automatic, e-mail address never displayed, HTML allowed: <a href="" title=""> <abbr title=""> <acronym title=""> <b> <blockquote cite=""> <cite> <code> <del datetime=""> <em> <i> <q cite=""> <strike> <strong> […]

  30. Forced to Photograph « charla.ca said, on April 13, 2008 at 9:39 am

    […] 2008, 4:38 pm Filed under: Random | Tags: legal, moral, photographer I also found this topic from Musings on Photography.   This is a very scary issue for me as a photographer.  I cannot imagine someone approaching me […]

  31. theresa said, on July 18, 2008 at 3:41 pm

    WHAT??
    Have some respect. People don’t like their picture taken , especially when it is going to be sold and they don’t see anything from it. The part of the people believing it takes their soul. And yet you still took pictures. Why do you think you know better, can’t you just respect and not take pictures. My elders use to say , picture it in your mind. My memories of her are in my heart.
    Just be respecttful, if one person asks you not to take pictures, just don’t take any. RIGHTS>>> they go out the door when you are violating someones space.

  32. Paul Butzi said, on July 18, 2008 at 7:34 pm

    Theresa-

    I’m afraid I don’t understand your comment. It seems to be a directed at me, but it also appears to be entirely unrelated to what I’ve written.

    Perhaps you could explain?

  33. Alex said, on October 20, 2008 at 11:18 pm

    I adore this article…it says so much! I want to be a photographer, but I also want to do right. And is it that hard to fathom that the two can go together?

    I admit, if there was something of the like of obvious child abuse, I would shoot away despite whatever the parent said. If we were under rule of someone horrible and there was all sorts of new rules about photography and I felt it was my obligation to the world to take a certain picture, I wouldn’t hesitate to take the picture.

    I hope you don’t mind, but I’d like to post this on my photography site (it’s new btw). If you don’t want me to just let me know and I’ll gladly take it down or change it to just a link to this post. Just like with my photography, if you don’t want me to do it, I won’t =)

  34. Luis Villalon said, on January 1, 2009 at 12:34 pm

    At a Diane Arbus retrospective in NYC, I bought a T-Shirt with one of her comments “One of the risks of appearing in public is the likelihood of being photographed”. This is one of the dilemmas photographers face when confronted with a great image. The composition, contrast, color is perfect and you shoot. You don’t go asking the person for permission to photograph him/her or to sign a release. If we were to do that there would not be Cartier-Bressons, Bruce Davidsons, Robert Franks, Helen Levitts, Mary Ellen Marks, and so on. This also carries the moral dilemma of using that photograph to show your photo at an exhibit or to include it in a book without the written permission of the person involved. You need to have sensitivity and respect for people but, at the same time, if you let the shot get by or feel guilty about shooting it, you might as well forget about photography and get a job at the post office or a store. There are things I won’t do: I will never try to make a photograph to make fun of, insult or deny that person the dignity he/she deserves. I won’t photograph anyone if they ask me not to do so, I won’t jump over any fence or enter a private property without permission, as discussed in this site, just to get a photo, I won’t photograph military or industrial instalations unless I am hired by those places to do so, and, of course, I will never sell a photo for advertising purposes without the written consent of the person-property owner and without sharing part of the proceedings or paying them a fee.

    I have just self published a book of my photographs which I intend to use mainly in lieu of a portfolio. Some people have already asked me if I will sell them a copy. Very flattering, professionally speaking, and I will do so. Am I going to make a lot of money? Hardly. Photo books, even those by super stars like Avedon, don’t sell well. Do I have the moral right to use those photos. Go back to the beggining of my post.

  35. popularity « Musings on Photography said, on December 5, 2009 at 12:21 pm

    […] post and this post, on photographer’s responsibilities, both legal and […]

  36. No more running. « Musings on Photography said, on February 25, 2010 at 2:52 pm

    […] of the most read posts on this blog are this one and this one, both of them on the balance between photographers’ legal rights and […]


Comments are closed.